randomness

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randomness

Post by boxripper on Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:46 pm

I don't really know where this report should go... so I'll put it here

I note the same monsters in the same rooms on the same day repop after repop.

Example.. teleporting down I land in the elemental room on 11.
  • three days ago it was an encounter with Summoner about 50-70% of the time
    two days ago it was rock elementals
    yesterday it was orc priestesses
    this morning it was white mists and the shaman


now none of these are really all that common, but why does the game seem to get stuck on them and keep spitting them out repop after repop? I notice this behavior alot more when I am alone in the game or the other player is just sitting in the city... ie when other people are playing with me and causing repops, this behavior is masked.

I especially see it in the UBER room. I won't see Reaper for weeks at a time, and suddenly he is 4 out of 6 repops. Recently, I got stuck in a Aeldu/Inanicale/Wyvern/Shiva loop which is a really bad one to get stuck on, because there are 3 ubers plus wyverns -- all of which are pretty nasty. Yesterday it was an Orcus thing-- and he is pretty much devoid of uber items as far as I can tell.

Is there anyway you can create a better distribution or mimic one by forcing it not to repop the encounter that was previously in the room? I also tend to find the same items in the same alignments alot. IE if I find a breath taker on day X, it has a great chance of being G because that is what I am finding on that day. BT (G). Then on day X+1, it will be something else.

JF
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Re: randomness

Post by boxripper on Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:27 am

UPDATE:

Today's uber encounter room of choice was a "non" uber --

behemouth, giant beagles, goliath...

I had seen that encounter three times previous to today (it is pretty rare) and yet today it was three repops in a row and 5 out of 6 total. Now I suppose it seems like this could just be the nature of random numbers, but when a small % event happens five out of six occurrences in the space of 30 minutes or so, it makes me wonder if something is influencing the distribution aside from chance.
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Re: randomness

Post by boxripper on Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:28 pm

Not to seem to be kicking the same dead horse, but for completeness sake...

I ran some this morning, and I had The Broker/Ninja/Falce Leto/LoA in the same uber room on back to back runs. This is a very, very rare encounter from my previous experience. I doubt I have seen this encounter more than 3 to 5 times EVER.

Then i came back this afternoon... and I encountered Dark Angel/Asmo three runs in a row in the same final uber room.

"Sticky" encounters seem to come in waves. But of my recent activity, I am running about 60/40 on the sticky side when no one else is in the game. It seems to make a large difference when someone else is in and actively playing. I don't know why.
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Re: randomness

Post by dungeonmaster on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:11 pm

I have relayed this to Jude.

He is very busy with RL issues.

Today, I "reformulated" the table that holds the Uber encounters. I doubt this will have any effect, but perhaps. Both tables you have mentioned (Uber and the special level 11 table) hold very few encounters compared to the others. Nonetheless, there are more than enough of them to produce an assortment of encounters. I don't understand why the game would be kicking out the same 3-6% chance encounters over and over again and/or why it would change from session to session. As to why it repops differently when other users are playing-- I am guessing that other rooms are getting repopped and that makes for a better distribution.

Let me know if anything changes.

JPA
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Re: randomness

Post by Jude on Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:42 pm

This issue is on the top of my list right now. (I agree with everything JPA has posted.). If you don't mind, I have a few questions.

First--when you see a streak of ubers, are you visiting any over encounter areas in between? Or is it: you are in uber room 1 and see encounter A, then move to uber room 2 and see another encounter A, etc...

OR, are all the uber rooms the same even though you pass through wimpy rooms between them?

I think the problem may be that the language I am using is returning the same value when the game keeps calling the same function over and over. When you call for function(monster(uber)) the game is giving you a monster.. then when you repeat the request, the code/language is being lazy and giving the old answer instead of calculating a new one.

If that theory is true, then having other players in is a good thing.. because it mixes up the monster requests, i.e one uber, one from level 1, another uber, one from level one.. and the code can't give the 'lazy' repeat answer.

I believe the laziness to be an undocumented glitch.. but I have ideas for a workaround. Looking forward to your answer!

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Re: randomness

Post by boxripper on Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:05 am

I don't really understand your question. I run the uber loop. Then I recall back to the city, Then I TP down and run the uber loop again. It is the same everytime.

Why not make an array of random encounters at boot time? Fill them sequentially from the array, and back fill them to be sure that no more than two are the same next to each other.?
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What do you think? Issue? or Non Issue?

Post by boxripper on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:38 am

Other players,

Do any of you see this issue happening?  I get the distinct impression from JPA that he has doubts as to the validity of this issue.  If you see this happening, say so.  If you think I am way out in left field kicking at the dandelions, please speak up as well.

I have pretty much stopped taking notes on things, so perhaps this is just an issue of perception.

Do you see the same encounters in the same special room run after run?
Do you seem to have days where the majority of your alignments are mostly one flavor?

JF
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Not tossing shade...

Post by dungeonmaster on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:01 am

Look.

I wasn't throwing cold water on your report.  What I said was, without the precise number tallies (that you have in the past been so proficient at obtaining) this could be a matter of perception and perception bias may well make it seem to be a bigger issue than it actually is.

Having others chime in, is a great idea.  I don't know how much it will help.  Go back to keeping notes and hit me with some actual numbers.  IE on 8/26 I hit the uber room 5 times and Shiva appeared 3 times. Is helpful, but we need to know what slot Shiva was in, and who else was in the room with Shiva.

Keep in mind, ubers appear in several different encounters.  So Aeldu appearing with Inanicaele (that is the correct spelling, BTW) is different than say Aeldu appearing with DK and Wyverns.  With Mis ID, it is sometimes hard to tell the difference between some of the various encounters.  Do your best to ID which encounter grouping you are finding.  

As always, thanks for your efforts to improve the game.

JPA
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Re: randomness

Post by boxripper on Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:01 pm

I will take careful notes and share them here.
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Re: randomness

Post by miger on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:46 pm

I had noticed a consistency of certain monsters being in the same location but didn't think much about randomness. I just thought it was that way.

For example in room at 20,11,11A and the room at 4,23,11, it seems that you are most likely to see the encounter of Rock Elementals & Wizards. Some others occur, but not frequently it seems. I have not actually recorded the % of various encounters.

I have not run level 15.

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Re: randomness

Post by boxripper on Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:24 pm

I went uber'ing today.

it went like this:

Leviathan, RHC, LoA, RHC
Leviathan, RHC, LoA, RHC
Loki, Twisties, Faeries or A/L's, BRT
Lev,RHC,LoA,RHC
short break, sign off, sign back in:
Behemouth,Bagles,Goliath, Behemouth
Loki, twisties --didn't see the rest clearly
VD,DHD,Vamps,Vamps (or maybe 1 slot was orcus) no box, didn't stick around long
Behemouth, Bagles, Golaith, Behemouth
Leviathan, RHC, LoA, RHC
Leviathan, RHC, LoA, RHC
quit running.

On a totally aside note... the RHC's are one of the nastiest encounters in the game.  i got a wand of Darkness today from one, and nothing from the rest.  

It used to be a really rare encounter... but it is too hard to be "so common" now since you re balanced the encounter tables and needs to have a decent shot at an item. The only effective way to get rid of the RHC's is to ring of life them ... and then they give decent gold, but no item or something totally lame....this is not my idea of fun.


Last edited by boxripper on Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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Re: randomness

Post by dungeonmaster on Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:42 pm

Thank you for the report.

A couple things...

When I reformulated the encounter table, I essentially left the % chances of a particular encounter the same-- I just made the table itself bigger.  At most, a particular encounter may have gotten a .1 to 1% chance increase or decrease.   I did this because the two tables you cited in your base note were similarly constructed, so I wanted to see if widening the spread of possible rolls would have any effect.

RHC's did get a new entry on the table, but NOT the one you keep finding.  The one you keep reporting should not be a terribly common event.  You found 10 ubers encounters, and faced 4 different encounters total.  But 50% of the encounters were with Leviathan and RHC.  That appears to be statistically unlikely, but we need more data.  Continue reporting please.
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Re: randomness

Post by dungeonmaster on Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:11 pm

I believe we may have an answer or at least a partial answer to this issue soon.

There is a certain functionality that I requested Jude build into the game, that has triggered the law of unintended consequences, and after getting chewed through the code, it may cause smaller tables to spit out streaky results.

I don't want to give away details, but it should be an easy fix once Jude gets some time.
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Re: randomness

Post by Jude on Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:56 pm

Follow up:

After chatting with JP, I have implemented some code changes that should cut down on the streakiness. Ultimately, the issue was not the fault of our random number generator, but rather an unintended consequence of old data getting left behind from previously completed encounters. I don't want to reveal too much here either, but the randomness situation should be better now.

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Re: randomness

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