Autoboxing

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Autoboxing

Post by ghard on Fri May 27, 2016 3:53 pm

Another thought i had after my time with the game is this. I do not believe that auto boxing should ever be possible even for a maxed out thief. Taking the chance of ever failing out of the equation I believes takes something from the game. Sweating over a slime box is lost to this version. I do like the idea that the failure rate for a top thief would not be 5% which i believe it to be on other systems. I would propose lower than that at its best rate. But, never failing takes away from the game imo.

Thanks,
Glenn

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by musicman on Mon May 30, 2016 8:41 pm

I agree. There has to be a chance of failure or it is not a game and the player wins every time.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Mon May 30, 2016 10:45 pm

I was unaware that boxing was maxing out at 100% here... If it truly is running at 100%, that is something that needs to be fixed.

If I were to categorize this behavior as "bug, oversight or feature", I would choose oversight...

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:32 pm

Follow up:

I have altered the boxing code, so now it is no longer possible to box at 100%. There is always a small percent chance of failure--I won't say exactly how much, but let me know how this plays out. The update is not live yet--but I will push it the next time I find the game empty.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:41 pm

I agree with the no failure on all other guilds, but let's face it, a professional THIEF should be very, very good at his job. In fact you will never know who is a professional THIEF simply because the amateurs are the ones who fail (get caught), not the pros. I see nothing wrong with a max THIEF never failing. That is why you selected a THIEF and included her in your group in the first place. It would be even better if the THIEF could steal from the other guilds.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:05 pm

I think that you have the failure rate set too high for a thief.
Let's face it: a healer always heals; a mage always casts their spell; a seeker never fails a spell; a warrior is good at fighting. But a thief - who should be really good at thieving - fails miserably. I joined the Thief Guild expecting proficiency at their specialty. What a false expectation - the failure rate is simply much too high. Can't trust the ++ so often that TP, Fate, Disease, Withering will get you every trip. Maybe you should rename the Thief Guild the Bungling Guild because if it was the real world, my thief would quickly be in jail!

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:44 pm

Well, we had the thief (mistakenly) maxing out at 100% boxing for a time, and people found that boring.

Based on your experience, what is the maximum % you think you're getting out of your thief? And what value would you propose as a replacement? If you could also provide the level of your thief, what level you are running on, and dexterity value(s), that would be great.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:31 am

Good questions Jude and the answers might enable you make some informed corrections to a thief's abilities. One of my thieves is currently stranded in one of the 13 anti-magic traps, but I will attempt to capture these answers during play on my other thief.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:24 am

At least a start on answering your questions:
Thief Grade 184. Dex is 27. All % is from level 7 traps.

Results from multiple trips: Out of 103 chest traps: 32 failed, 71 were safely opened.
I did not attempt any fear traps due to the experience of being likely to lose companions.

I will continue to capture data, but my conclusion is that this is a lousy % for a thief. No other guild shows such a failure rate on their guild spells.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:05 pm

Jude, you asked the questions and here is some more stats for your consideration:

My thief is grade 199 now with a Dex of 26 using all available usable items for my grade. Chest stats are primarily from level 7 where my quests are located with some now coming from level 8.

Total trapped chests opened: 633
Total failed chests:               193
Total traps safely opened:      440

Failure rate:  30.5%

I do not open Fear traps because of the high risk of losing good companions.

Again, my request for review and change is that ALL other guilds (except scavy)  DO NOT FAIL on their spells. The thief is not good at what his guild offers and, at the early time of char development when money is really scarce to buy store items, the thief fails over 30% of the time AND suffers some consequences others can avoid entirely.

To even things up, what if ALL the other guilds failed 30% of the time in casting their spells, AND suffered an unfavorable result when the spell failed? Like getting poisoned, diseased, TP'd, etc, just because their guild specialty failed. Withering is especially troubling when your char is aged just because the guild spell fails 30% of the time as my documentation shows.

Please consider making the thief much better at what her guild is suppose to be really good at.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by boxripper on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:52 pm

My ogre thief lvl 330 ish, is apparently a better boxer than Jessie James OSIRI 250 levels higher.

I note that Operator (level 550 GIANT) in the stats file and wonder if that is the char you used to test your boxing?

Could it be that DEXTERITY is coded wrong?
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Re: Autoboxing

Post by dungeonmaster on Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:23 pm

Jude is out of town for a few days. I know he has several issues he is planning on investigating when he returns. This is one of them. Expect to hear something in a few days (or so.)
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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:18 pm

I'm not sure how an Ogre could outbox an Osiri 250 levels above him... But maybe there is a glitch in the matrix somewhere.  (Or maybe 'luck' is coded incorrectly?)

Revisiting boxing is very high on our priority list--it will be our next main push.  I'll report back here after I run a few tests over on the test server.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:33 pm

Jude you asked for additional info and here is my latest accumulation for a grade 211 thief with maximum 26 dex. These stats were captured over levels 7-9.

Out of 1010 trapped chests, 337 failed. That is a 33.7% failure rate. 1/3 of the time that my thief applies his guild specialty, it fails.

The most common trap was Exploding Box (131). The worst failure rate happened with Disease at 41%. The failure with the most impact (IMHO) is Withering with 44 failures out of 122 traps (36%) which added 176 weeks of age to my thief just for failing at what his guild should be good at!

Fate has failed 19 times out of 50 traps (38%) with about equal +/- effect. I simply do not open Fear traps when I have companions because of the high chance of losing them. Without companions the failure rate was 50% (3 out of 6).

I can not offer to you what would be an acceptable rate, except to repeat that thieving is supposed to be what Thieves excel at. Failure at a guild's specialty leads directly to bad consequences for a Thief - disease, poison, aging, loss of cast spells & companions. I think this is unfair to the thieves since other non-boxing guilds do not fail in casting the spells of their guilds' specialties. Like I previously mentioned, what if a sorc not only had his spells fail 33% of the time, but suffered similar penalties in addition.

I encourage you to make the Thief's guild good at their specialty.

Mike

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:59 am

Thanks for the data--much appreciated. I am mid-way through rolling out a new operator utility designed to troubleshoot thieving percentages. This will allow us to see if the problem is location dependent (i.e. if there is an issue with specific dungeon areas/levels), guild/race/stat data dependent, or a subtle issue with the boxing code. There are a lot of moving parts to boxing/thieving, and knowing where to apply the fix is the key. We're on the case--thanks for your patience!

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:45 pm

After documenting in previous notes that Thief characters are a disgrace to their guild by having such a high failure rate at that which they are suppose to be exceptional good, I have recently been running a Scavenger character.

While admittedly it is only a grade 91 with 26 Dex, I find this scavy really is undependable in identifying chests and even worse are disarming them successfully when running on the expected levels. On the last trip to level 5 to find my quest (Phental), I blew 4 consecutive traps and even more seriously, I blew 3 withering traps on that trip alone which of course added 12 weeks age as a penalty.

My point again is that besides the openers guilds, no other guild fails its specialty spells as frequently and then suffers a penalty when the spell fails.

Why not permit the openers to be as good at the special skill their guild provides them as the other guilds are at their specialty?  This is especially important since the openers always incur a penalty when they frequently fail.

Respectfully, Mike


Last edited by miger on Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correction)

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:12 pm

Ok, the musical project that has been occupying a lot of my time is starting to wrap up, which means I have more time to work on Javatar. I just got the debug tool for thieving up and running, so now we'll have much better tools to address this issue. I'm going to run a quick survey and see where the problem lies..

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Mon May 01, 2017 6:45 pm

About a month ago, you were going to look into the Thief guild settings.

When a fully equipped thief runs the level on which his quests are found, it is almost a certainty that on a trip by opening chests, he will repeatedly get poisoned, diseased, slimed, and aged. TP and Fear traps just are not worth the penalty especially on anti-magic sub-levels. The guild feature of opening magic-locked chests does not offset the poor chance of successfully opening chests. And this is what the Thief Guild is supposed to be GOOD at.

Please take that promised look at the thief who today blows an average of 1/3 of his chests on the levels he needs to go to for quests AND suffers the penalty when he tries. Make the thief at every level as good as the other guilds are at their specialties. That is the only reason one would create a thief. At least the other guilds don't incur an additional penalty when thier guild spell fails.

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by boxripper on Tue May 02, 2017 2:56 pm

Mike,

I don't know what you are doing with a thief... race wise or item wise-- but put all the dex items on him/her that you can.

While I agree that thief boxing is not as good as it should be, I don't see anyways close to a 33% failure rate. I kept track for a bit and it was running in the 17-18% range.

JF
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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:59 pm

Jake,

Thanks for chiming in on this. I recently took a look at the code and guild data, and I wasn't able to find a discrepancy that would account for the 33% failure rate mentioned repeatedly in this thread.

That said, I am planning an imminent upward tweak on boxing--stay tuned.

-Jude


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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:39 pm

Ok, I have made a change to the thieving code. There was a routine in there that was (purposefully) eating away at a character's boxing chance as they went deeper into the dungeon. That routine was, in my opinion, operating much too aggressively. I have tamed the offending routine substantially. Thieves (and all other boxers) should fare marginally better on the shallow levels, and significantly better on the deep levels, where the routine was pimping the players the most.

This change will be going live soon. I'll post here when it's up.


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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:56 am

The change is live (it has been up since the evening of June 5).

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by docriley on Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:19 am

I have noticed a difference. I agree that (comparatively) the Thief was not nearly as successful in his/her guild as any other guild member. I also agree that there should be a (small) chance even a pimped out thief should have to fail. Before the implementation, I thought my thief failed far too much on ++ boxes (especially since he runs maxed out for thieving). I haven't kept track, but whatever you did makes the character MUCH more playable now - (just enough failures to make you sweat that  big TP box from the Stud enct)

As another aside, the game has seemed "glitchy" the last few days, culminating in not at all even playable today. It seems a connection issue. Lag had been increasing, and now 3/4 characters get frozen on log in. I never know if this is weather (it is storming today) server issues, provider issues, or my system. If it would be at all possible, could you please look into it, when you can? I truly appreciate all you do! This game is my personal little "guilty pleasure" with my cup of coffee in the early AM, and I really enjoy it!

Thanks again!

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by Jude on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:19 pm

Thanks for the feedback, Doc. I'm glad to hear that the thieving situation is better. Has the connection/lag issue improved at all? I did a reboot of the server (which was long overdue). Did it help?

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Re: Autoboxing

Post by miger on Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:04 am

I saw the announcement that a new thieving routine was introduced. I know that there were various opinions on that subject. I am happy that Jude was willing to consider alternatives for the best interests of the game.

I waited to comment so I could give the new settings a fair test, at least using my two thieves. So doing that now for a while, I must agree 100% with docriley's comments: a thief now seems to be compatively good at his guild's skill; and there is still what appears to be enough of a risk factor that will cause a pause before opening a chest with a risky effect, especially on a more potentially valued chest. Nice balance job.

I do not have a very young thief or a totally maxed thief, and have not yet run a scavy, so I can only comment on the changes I see when running my two thieves at grades high 200 and low 400 with their appropriate dex.

Thanks again for listening.

Mike

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Re: Autoboxing

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