monster magic immunity

It appears that monster magic immunity is not working correctly. I will be making a speed pass thru the entire database setting individual resistances to correct this rather glaring oversight on my part.

Be prepared. Some monsters that you have been used to casting against are going to suddenly require something a *little different* to kill. Example given: Medusa. This monster was supposed to be immune to magic. It will soon be so.

In the interest of fairness-- I will provide you with a list of monsters that were supposed to be immune to magic-- that are not and have not been immune to magic.  This is going to represent a significant change in play style for those folks that have already developed a strategy.  I am totally at fault here.  I ASSUMED that the magic immunity had been implemented-- when in fact it has never worked.  My play testing should have included testing the monsters immunity, but quite frankly-- most of my testing has been geared towards making sure that the players have a way to defeat the monsters... not vice versa.  This represents a glaring oversight on my end, and totally unacceptable self-blindness.  I will try and have a patch to the data, and a complete monster list by tomorrow night.

The following monsters immunity to magic is about to become active.

Arcane Semyuti
Bane
Battle Wizards
Dragon Lords
Falce Leto
Gnome Mages
-- Golems, Iron Battle, Obsidian and War
Kelbies
Lich
Magi Lord
Master of Elements
Master of Magics
Medusa
Rock Elementals
Skin Changer
The Broker
The Soulless
Spectre
Water Spiders

monster immunity is now live.

and the game is now dead........

Joking of course, but I would like to suggest that some of the virtual critters on this list be made (to one degree or another) resistant to magic rather than totally immune to magic.
As it stands now most large groups of monsters below 5 need 2 types of spells to get to a reasonable number that can be fought to finish in one round, but that's ONLY if you are running a 5 bagger that has 1Boxer, 2 Spellers, and 2 fighter types (Jake as we know runs a 6-bagger consisting of scav/healer/sorc/seeker/warrior & ninja) {that's essentially 4 fighter types}. Not everyone can do that. I see this change as a move towards the monsters having the advantage and suggest more test playing before implementing such a fundamental change (at least to the drastic degree of change this patch implies).
Disclaimer: This is merely the opinion of a seasoned gam0r.

Steve,

Thanks for the feedback.

We stand at a crossroads. The path we have been on leads to more of the same. Over used spell chuckers, under used fighters, and encounters that last exactly one round, or you are most likely dead. This is the path of the four bagger optimized to cast.

This was not the path I had originally conceived, but rather the path I allowed to develop by ineptitude and poor play testing. My bad. I certainly understand the fundamental shift this hasty change has created. And I sympathize with your collective angst. I had hoped that by publishing the list of monsters I was changing, I would mitigate the damage-- but I fear I just added to the gaming equivalent of despair you all were experiencing.

I am not sold on the idea that the new path is the correct path. I would ask you all to try it for a few days, give me your feedback, and let us make a informed choice-- not one based on fear and preconceptions, but rather on actual experience. I can easily swing some or all of the monsters back to the way they were before.

Heading back to the "way it was" is an option, modifying the original plan is an option. Neither of these two addresses the fundamental flaw this game is experiencing.

Anyone want to share any thoughts?

Pardon my inexperience showing as I respond.

While I have only run into 1 or 2 of that long list of magic-resist monsters so far, I am impressed by the large number of them. I assumed that any monster in an anti-magic area was already magic resistant for that incident and thought that would be a big challenge if one was relying primarily on spellers as some seem to be on sorc. Now to realize that there will be many other monster outside of such areas that will not fall to fight spells is a eye-opening surprise. I expected a few - not a lot. Am I understanding your intentions correctly?

Since you talk about what you had "originally conceived" as a path to play, can you share more about your original intentions? For example, did you expect a 2 bagger (2 chars as I understand it) to be viable in the game? Or even 3 chars? If not, what is your vision of what would be required to play the game to the fullest?

Respectfully, Mike

musicman wrote:and the game is now dead........

Joking of course, but I would like to suggest that some of the virtual critters on this list be made (to one degree or another) resistant to magic rather than totally immune to magic.
As it stands now most large groups of monsters below 5 need 2 types of spells to get to a reasonable number that can be fought to finish in one round, but that's ONLY if you are running a 5 bagger that has 1Boxer, 2 Spellers, and 2 fighter types (Jake as we know runs a 6-bagger consisting of scav/healer/sorc/seeker/warrior & ninja) {that's essentially 4 fighter types}. Not everyone can do that. I see this change as a move towards the monsters having the advantage and suggest more test playing before implementing such a fundamental change (at least to the drastic degree of change this patch implies).
Disclaimer: This is merely the opinion of a seasoned gam0r.

-
I don't want to contradict a gam0r (seasoned or unseasoned) however-- the seeker and the scavenger are not fighters in any stretch of the imagination. The scavvie seems to fight a bit better than the seeker, but both are pretty hopeless in terms of F power. I am still formulating my thoughts on the rest of this. I struggle to reconcile how to make a game that is playable by a 3 bagger and still challenging for a 6 bagger.

Fighter types are those whose main attack (lacking offensive magic spells and/or special items which are useless in a situation where the monster is resistant/immune to magical attacks anyway) is to fight. Warriors and Ninjas are the obvious stand outs as far as damage goes but in situations where the last monsters standing are spell resistant/immune, fighting is the correct move and as you well know the deeper you go, the more important it is (depending on the foe) to clear the encounter by what works best for the situation.Those who are comfortably able to run more than 4 characters, may indeed have an advantage. I have a relatively large amount of experience running a 4 bagger. A 5 bagger is often a challenge and a 6 bagger is just a chore (for me). I hear the DM's hope for there to be more balance in parties (which is generally a good 'formula for success' for the player(s) in this game) but I would still advocate for toning it down a bit and resistances vs immunity is still the best idea I have for this further attempt at balancing things.

Using your definition a thief is a fighter as well.  

The only thing that sets a scavvie above a thief is the use of Gauntlets.  Sure, he fights a smidgeon better. he pays for that smidgeon with a hefty reduction in boxing.  But when the feces impacts the spinning  propeller, the scavvie is going to be sitting at a screen seeing "You Missed."  "You Missed."  "You are DEAD."  Just like the thief, and the fact that he is swinging a Shadow Axe doesn't change a dang thing.

Jake suggested I lower the defense of the mobs with immunity.

We will try this as a means of reducing the impact.

Be advised, it is not my intention to encourage players using a thief as the main 'F' er in their party.  I intend to encourage players to run balanced parties-- BUT not mandate it.

Mike, sorry I didn't get back to you earlier.

The list is long, but mainly comprises 1 or 2 monster on a level.  As you descend there are more, but also more normal monsters floating about too. The more useful levels (like say 11) have more. The less used, have less.

Anti magic is not the same thing.

Originally conceived is the way I wanted the data to work out.  Of course, I have not been more than moderately successful along the way.  It is no secret the data is set to be moderately challenging for a party of 4-5 balanced chars.  If you play more, it will be easier.  If you play less-- it will be more challenging.  I have ZERO interest in making a game for 1 or two chars to run in.  The world is full of those-- that is not what this game is about at all.  

I also have no interest in laying down a bunch of rules and dispensing judgments about players and or their styles.  Play the game however you see fit.  If your method does something I don't like to the structure-- I will ask you to stop.  Like I did with marker chars.  Should a player decide to not abide by my requests... well we will cover that when it actually occurs.  I don't intend to exercise a lot of control over the players, EXCEPT thru the data I implement.  If I do it correctly, play styles that are less desirable from the game's standpoint will be less successful than those that are not.  Players will figure this out for themselves and adjust accordingly.

So you can run solo if you wish.  You can run 12 chars at once if you wish.  I am not going to tell you what you need to play the game.  You need a balanced party.  Some F.  Some Cast.  Some Defense.  Some Healing.  Some ability to move quickly.  Some Locate.  Some Boxing.   Some Buffing. And so forth.  
-- Do you need all of those? --> No.  
-- Which ones can you leave out? --> There is the rub.  You have to figure that out for yourself.

Sorry you posted as I was trying to post...

Reduced defense helps. My scavvie and seeker can actually hit some of these guys now.

You may have gone to far on Medusa. She is pretty wimpy now.

Balance Party.

Get a big azz honking monitor and a nice video card. Open 8 windows at once. Leave out nomad, pally, villain, and then pick either scavvie or thief. There is an optimized, balanced party. Heck with 8 chars-- you are a walking party. Pass out some cocktails and app's and you are good to go!

As always, Jake has a knack of cutting right to the heart of the issue.

I was trying to wait to weigh in till i built a fighter, but will put my thoughts for what they are worth.

My issue long list of magic immune is that it mandates a fighter/fighters. I think that it is reasonable to make 14 and beyond monsters magic immune, but higher in the dungeon monsters i would think strong magic resistance would be a better move. Long list magic immune means must have at least one if not more fighter types. That means must run ninja/boxer or warrior/boxer. So to make a party that can handle all encounters, probably means at least 5 char running if not 6 char running. Perhaps this is intended, but for myself i dont have much desire to make running such a large administration issue of handling 5 or 6 chars at a time. Also i play on a laptop quite a bit, so going beyond 4 means a lot of term overlap which is also an issue.

I certainly think there is something to be done here to toughen up encs for caster only party. But i would suggest at least something in between no magic immune and long list magic immune as a possible solution. I am a fan of strong magic resistance over immune for non 15/uber monsters as i said. Having to run lots of terms is a separate issue i realize, but these two items certainly have some overlap.

I've been running this for a while now... and keep in mind that this is written from the perspective of someone who is already built (more or less) and not someone who is building.  

First, I support your efforts to toughen up the game.  You have made great strides since the previous version-- but it still could go further.

Second, I fully understand your desire to have balanced parties playing your game.  I think had you instituted this philosophy from the beginning, it would be easier for everyone to get along with.  Making people change strategies half way thru... is bound to bring up some resistance.

Lastly, I fully support everyone who wants to run this game with no more than 4 windows open.   It seems a reasonable thing to not (thru the design) force somebody to try and run 5 or 6 windows all at once.  

That all being said -- here is what I think....

1)  Other versions of this game allow people to run "super" mages down thru level 13 or 14.  They can pretty much do it all.  You changed that-- which is cool, but it creates a pretty large vacuum in the whole 4 char party, that really nothing can fill.  Here, mages just won't cut it as a blast char.  Now a healer/wiz makes a more universal blast char-- til you get down to 14 or so... where they just can't cut it.  That leaves you with a Sorc.    Slot 1 is filled.   Boxer-- you can run a thief or a scavvie, and anything else is pretty much hopeless.  Slot 2 is filled.  No one is walking up from 13 -- heck it is hard to walk up from 11.  So you need a wiz or a seeker.  Slot 3 is filled.
I don't have any healing yet....and I still need somebody to fight. and my oh, my.  I am looking at either nerfing my party by trying to use a wiz as my main firepower, or I am nerfing my party by trying to run a paladin as my fighter/healer.  And of course that will only work as a GOOD party, if we ever get the alignment bug fixed.  

2) There is another way to do this running 4 windows, and having a 5th window minimized.  TP down.  Leave the seeker/wiz behind.  Run. When you need extraction, maximize the window, locate, displace, and WoR out.  Doesn't sound very pleasant-- but it will work.

3) The List of monsters you produced has created a lot of fear among the smaller chars.  Mainly due to the sheer volume of monster names...  so to calm everyone's fears I am going to break it all down...

level 15/14 = Lich, Mage Lord, Dragon lord, Falce Leto, The Broker, Medusa, Arcane Semyuti, Iron Battle Golems, Medusa, Obsidian Golems      --> 10 Mobs (seems like a lot--but amid all the other mobs you see down there, it isn't really.)
lvl 13,12 = Skin changer (can find him on 11) Battle Wizards                                                                                                     -- > 2 Mobs
lvl 11 REGULAR none MASTERS ROOMS Skin changer (again) Master of Magics, Master of Elements.  ELEMENTAL ROOMS Rock Elementals  -- > 3 Mobs (plus repeat)
lvl 10 BANE  (appears on 11 sometimes too)                                                                    -- > 1 Mob
lvl 9 War Golem (sometimes on 8 too)                                                                             -- > 1 Mob
lvl 5,6,7,8  Kelbies                                                                                                         -- > 1 Mob

That leaves us with The Soulless and Spectre  -- both appear only in Banshidhe's Lair as far as I know
and WATER SPIDERS (that I have never ever seen)                                            -- > 3 mobs

Now take away the 14/15 Mobs, and the 2 mobs in Banshidhe's lair and you are left with 8 mobs.  And two of those really only appear in the masters rooms on 11.

So what does this mean... Well, for me it means that there has been (as the bard said,) Much ado about nothing.

But for the sake of those that are bothered-- perhaps the wisest course of action is to perhaps allow mage spells to work slightly on one of these. And maybe healer/wiz spells to have some slight effect on another one.  Perhaps Fire could damage a third, while a 4th is found susceptible to cold.  Kelbies (being water creatures-- would be wonderful  targets for a bit of electricity to get past their defenses)  Wouldn't have to be much, just some.  And then you have removed 5 more names from the list -- and we are down to 3 mobs total from level 5-12.

Seems reasonable to me.

oops I missed Gnome mages, and put medusa on my list twice.

My B.

I have no data on the GM. They were added after I finished running those levels. You guys will have to tell me where they are and how common they are.

Thanks for the responses, gentlemen.

While I digest this and take some time to decide -- continue to run the game and see what you think. As the data now sits-- it is only fairly significant on 13-15. The monsters with immunity are almost totally avoidable on 11. And should you get a Q, reach out to the community for help.

This game has morphed over time due to the nature of the way we play a crew instead of a char. So perhaps a change like this one is just asking too much of players inured to the 'do it all myself' mentality. Give me a bit to mull things over. I will tell you this much tho-- Super mages (as you called them) are NOT making a return here.