IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

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IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by musicman on Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:57 pm

From my observation of how boxing works here, I would like to suggest that dexterity be included in the formula for successful disarms (as it was in all versions after the original "avathar").
As it is now only the character level is considered when determining the percentage of success in performing this task by thieves and scavengers. I have not tried with a ninja or villain (who also have the charm of opening spell). I think that including a dexterity bonus in determining a successful disarm of a trap would more closely simulate avatar in it's most popular iterations.
Thanks in advance for considering this proposal. I would also like to encourage other players to chime in on this issue, especially veteran players who took the time over the years to compile empirical data on how the game avatar does and doesn't work.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:07 pm

I support this idea. I would say as it is now is a "bug". There is no advantage to selecting a race with better dex to be a thief since it does not matter for boxing (imo from what i observe). It is logical to me that lower dex races can be a thief, but they should not be as good at thieving as higher dex races at the same level. A higher dex being better makes sense in boxing ability and ability to avoid thieving by monsters.

Thanks.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:18 pm

The boxing formula,bas it stands in the code, does indeed incorporate dexterity.

Now, I am certainly receptive to the idea that the formula, as entered, is not properly incorporating dexterity, or incorporating it in a way that you remember historically. If anyone has a specific recommendation for a boxing formula based on dexterity and character level, I am all ears. Otherwise, I'll keep tweaking what I have until I get it right.

I remember back in the day, re-equipping a maxed out thief in a stud room, refreshing the screen to see better boxing percentages when wearing thief's gloves vs gloves with better att/def.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:05 pm

Well, I cannot claim to having the boxing formula to pass along, but I can say that as it sits now, level is all that "seems" to matter. That being with observation, I cannot see how dex changes anything, but I can see how level changes boxing ability.

I share your experience with equipping dex items, like thief's gloves, and then open the slime box with better shot at disarming the box.

I will say that dex is far far less of a factor here, so strongly consider upping the value of dex in boxing. The same applies to resistance to thieving.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by musicman on Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:51 pm

The importance of the inclusion of the thief/scav's dexterity in the formula used here for determining successful disarm is not that evident.
I know some DM's included a reflex save (1-X * char lvl + INT+DEX vs. a varying number depending on trap difficulty and dungeon depth) when the player character rolled dice to determine success. This is merely a suggestion.
Thanks for listening

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:30 pm

I have a new version of the boxing code running on the test server. This code makes dexterity a more important factor in boxing effectiveness.

Here's a question for the veteran players out there:

At what modified dex was it commonly agreed upon that a maxed out Osiri thief had reached 'max boxing'? I know the guild level at which thieves max, but I can't remember the dex value.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:36 pm

I always thought 33 would max it out, 34 certainly maxed it out imo.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by musicman on Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:06 pm

I ran an Osiri thief in every version which had that race and it is my opinion that 35 dex (modified) was the pinnacle for the thief to have the fewest errors/accidents. With all the dexterity modifying items there are here in javatar an Osiri thief can get well over that by the time it makes lvl 509 (which was the max spell level {255 for all classes} and ability level for most classes {all class abilities maxed by level 509 btw save boxing for Scav/Ninja/Villain}). Thieves boxing ability maxed out earlier though while their % shot at backstab maxed at 509. I hope this information helps.
Thank you Jude for your continued efforts to make javatar a fun game.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:11 am

My level 494 scav cannot reliably even identify traps on 14 and still gets stolen from by thief monster on up on the thieving scale. He also rates a plus minus on boxes on 14 and just recently got to single plus on level 13 boxes. He is single plus on level 10 boxes.

I would call this surprising as thieving ability (in other versions mind you) maxes out in the level 760x range.

btw, 32 dex currently on the scav.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by musicman on Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:45 am

Well for one thing wisdom + level/X (unknown) was how traps were identified and classes besides thief & scavvy had a decent shot at ID if they had a high wisdom score. When you were in doubt, you could exit & re-enter the room one or more times for a consensus.
I still see no evidence that the boxers dexterity score makes ANY difference whatsoever in disarming. It appears to be level only which determines the boxers success. I have a (470) thief and am building a scavenger (271) and make periodic comparisons with both identification of traps and disarm chance (with the bars and # of +'es) and therefore consider my compiled data to be of an empirical nature. The level of the character (and I am taking into consideration that the scavenger class accrues boxing skills at approximately one third the rate as the thief class) is what appears to determine disarm success. Has anyone else made similar comparisons or have any observations on this aspect of the game? Please feel free to either dispute or support what I am seeing.
Thank You

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:05 am

Level 515 scav with 34 dex is plus minus on all 14 boxes. He cannot reliably even identify traps on 14. Remove his dex items and try 14 boxes, i see no difference but of course cannot detect subtle differences with scale of -- to ++.

I agree that level alone seems to matter for ability to disarm boxes. What i have seen in other vers is level matters for boxing (ability to identify trap) along with wisdom. Dex in combination with level matters in ability to disarm trap (why boxer carries thief's gloves and puts them on for slime trap, etc). Also why races with higher dex are desirable as boxers.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:38 am

I've been working on this over on the test server. When I have it in a state worth bringing to the live server I'll post here again.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:59 pm

thank you.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by musicman on Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:21 pm

and there will indeed be much rejoicing
Thanks

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:42 am

Ok, I just completed a rewrite of the code dealing with boxing and theft resistance. The code now takes dexterity into account when calculating these skills. The overarching goals behind this change are as follows:

To make races with high dex (i.e. Osiri) more valued as Thieves/Scavengers. Races with high dexterity sacrifice other skills and attributes, so this helps balance the game as intended.

To make items that grant increased dexterity more desirable/valuable.

Making thief-proofing improve on a faster curve than it did before.

Additional code was added to allow for certain traps on a level to be slightly more difficult than others.. So a slime box might be harder to disarm than a poison gas box.

Please note--as part of this code change, there was some rebalancing of the tables that deal with thieving/thieving resistance progression. We also may not have the dex contribution perfectly dialed in. I would appreciate specific feedback.. I have done some testing, but you may run into problems. Fortunately, the new code/system in place should be *much* easier for us to adjust/dial in.

Good luck!

-Jude

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:18 pm

Is this on test server only or implemented in the live game?

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:11 pm

It is live now. I just restarted the server application--we were offline due to a Windows update.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:41 pm

Level 553 scav with 35 dex went from double plus to single plus on 11.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:59 pm

Okay, something is wrong, the scav has not blown a single chest in the first 30 or 40 on 14/15.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:35 pm

well, i guess it was just a hot streak. still boxing better than before, but have blow a fair number of boxes.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:41 am

Thanks for the detailed feedback. I built an identical scavy on the test server, and 15 seemed ok--not a cakewalk.

I just adjusted the lesser boxers (ninja, nomad, villain) a bit.

Let me know if you think and individual dungeon levels need to be adjusted in terms of boxing difficulty (up or down).

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:49 pm

If we are hoping to "simulate" other versions, let me offer this info to the best of my knowledge. Scavs increase boxing ability at 1/2 thief speed (very close to that if not exact). Thief maxes as in boxing ability short of 400, 370x. So a scav at 550 boxes like a thief at 275.

The scale in other versions for boxing ability seems to be a logarithmic scale increasing sharply then slowing then progressing at a very slow pace at the end of the progression.

In other vers by level 550 with a strong dex, like 35 is on the scav, the scav on toughest boxes is single plus on 14/15. Takes him all the way to 762 as it was communicated to me to reach max boxing ability. Beginning of "soft" double plus, barely qualifies for that ranking, is somewhere in the mid 600s, for this example we will use 650. Takes another 120 levels still to max out in boxing ability, even though scav sees double plus, he is not maxed yet.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:01 pm

Another observation. The thieving scale follows this results pattern quite closely if not exactly.

-- minimum chance of disarming to 20% chance of disarming
- 20% to 40% chance of disarming
+- 40% to 60% chance of disarming
+ 60% to 80% chance of disarming
++ 80% to maximum chance of disarming

IMO the maximum percentage of disarming attainable is 95% (1 blown out of 20) I have heard 97.5% (1 blown out of 25) argued for by others, but by my observation it is 95%.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:29 pm

you said this: Let me know if you think and individual dungeon levels need to be adjusted in terms of boxing difficulty (up or down).

It is my belief that difficulty in boxing by level should follow a pretty linear progression. Each new level is 1/15th more difficult to box than the one before it up to the maximum.

I have observed building my nomad that 11, 11A and 12A as a level 330x nomad, i get 5 boxes on trap identification. At the same level on 9 and 10 for example I get 3 boxes on identifying the trap. Following what i stated before this should be a progression in difficulty and never would a deeper level present less of a trap identifying challenge than those above it, imo.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:32 pm

Trap identification:

1 box     - minimum to 20% chance identification is correct
2 boxes  - 20% to 40%
3 boxes  - 40% to 60%
4 boxes  - 60% to 80%
5 boxes  - 80% to maximum chance identification is correct

Unlike chances to disarm a trap maxing at 95%, trap identification does hit 100% at maximum of the ability.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

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