IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:59 pm

Thanks so much for the detailed responses. Yes, I do want boxing here to simulate '84 boxing as much as possible.

I appreciate you giving me the observed percentage ranges that correspond to ++, +, +/-, etc and the certainty boxes. I will check those against the progressions I am using (which I suspect are the same or close). We need to have those indicators dialed in so we can know if the guilds/dungeon are behaving appropriately.

I will digest the rest of your notes and see if I can improve my implementation a bit, especially on the progression part. Right now, we have a very linear progression (with respect to dungeon difficulty) and also a somewhat linear progression on ability with player level. I need to revisit that last bit.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:47 am

Thanks Jude.

One more thing I want to stress is dex for disabling traps. I did not personally build this char, but a friend who i respect in game knowledge (Jeff Theime) built an ogre thief instead of osiri to try to get the con bonus of ogre and still make a strong thief. It was communicated to me that the 4 lower dex on ogre vs osiri made the experiment a bust in his mind as the thief never made a max boxer he believed (based on observation admittedly). He estimated that the ogre thief maxed at low 90% rather than 95, because of dex. That the 4 lower dex points did not meet the threshold for having enough dex to max the ogres boxing regardless of level (admittedly there were less dex add items in that ver). I say all this to make this point, dex for disabling traps should not trump level of course, but it should be huge, as important as level nearly, in disabling traps.

It is my opinion that in other vers, only morloch, troll and osiri could meet the dex threshold to be confident you could end up with a max boxer for those 15 slime boxes (as scav, in those versions scav could not use loki). Dwarf could make max as thief with native 19 dex if you had loki and thief's armor and thief's gloves for him. But dropping as low as 18 native dex, the line was crossed for making a max boxer. A strong boxer could be made with 18 native, quite strong, but could not hit max boxing.

My 2 cents.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by dungeonmaster on Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:37 pm

Being that higher dex is obtainable here, means that higher dex will be required to obtain max.  We aren't going to pin ability with a 35 dex when you can get to 37, or 38 here.  So the variances should still be in place, just at higher numbers. The theoretical max dex is still going to be 40, just like strength.
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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:13 pm

Right, relative scale on dex. But i don't believe end of scale dex items should be required for max boxing for osiri, only on low dex guilds.

I will say that scav 566 being single plus on 11 and plus minus 14/15 with 35 dex is quite a bit off of expected results in 84. Should certainly be single plus by now on 14/15 and double plus on 11.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:03 pm

Ok, some new boxing code is live.  Here are a few fixes:

The code that determines your character's boxing effectiveness should much more closely resemble the historical boxing formula. I have tried the new system specifically with a scavenger, and I believe the boxing accuracy to be more in line with traditional expectations.

Also: The %'s for ++, +, +/-, -, and -- were screwed up.  ++ was only being seen for 90% and up, not 80% and up as it was historically.  (This made the boxing seem a lot worse than it was.)  I have fixed the range indicators to function as Glenn indicated in his earlier note.

Let me know how it plays out--I'm hoping you find this patch to be a lot better than it was.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:09 pm

574 scav with 35 dex now gets 2 boxes and plus minus on 14. Not good.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:20 pm

Boxing is a total guessing game for scav now on 14. He has no idea what the trap is, oh my.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:24 pm

level 442 thief with 34 dex gets 3 boxes on id and double plus on 4, oh my.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:08 pm

Whoops--in tweaking the boxing accuracy code I messed up the uncertainty code--but it has been repaired.

After a little bit of live tweaking with the crew tonight, I think we're in a better place.  Thanks for your help (and patience!) on this one. Smile


Last edited by Jude on Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : not enough smileys)

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:00 pm

We are in a better place. Thanks for the effort Jude!

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:53 am

I noticed something on boxes. One of my build paths doubles back on itself and i noticed that each time i entered the room with a box in it with level 35 villy, the number of boxes increased and the likelihood of disarming increased each time. Looks like something is accumulating rather than resetting each time a boxer enters a room.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:51 pm

Thanks for the info regarding the accumulation effect. That issue has been fixed (as of the patch last night). Hopefully we will have some smooth sailing with the boxing routine for a while.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by musicman on Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:42 am

I think there may still be a glitch here. My Osiri thief (482) is gaining levels still while I am buildiing other chars. Boxing is getting worse however and my modified dex is quite high. I am also getting some mis-ID's on box traps. It was my understanding (from a consensus among players back in the day) that the trap identification ability (wisdom modifier) was one roll (which thieves and scavvy's were best at and maxed out much? sooner than the ability to disarm traps) and the disarm trap ability (dexterity modifier) was another roll.
In any case it is getting worse since the recent change.
Is anyone else noticing an inconsistency?


Last edited by musicman on Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:41 am

I haven't made any changes since fixing the accumulation issue.. Are things getting worse for you as you go deeper, or as you stay on the same level? Keep in mind that some boxes within a level are
more difficult. Also--IDing boxes here is a separate roll/progression,
based on skill level and wisdom.

Tweaks may still be needed though--if you can give me specifics (levels, stats, etc) it's easier to dial things in on my end.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:48 am

I have not seen new issues with scav level 620ish.  Still having the issue that the scav mis-ids a good number of boxes on 15.  Trap Id hits max before boxing hits max (referring other vers).  Also box identification at level 620 on a scav should have already maxed imo (max being 100% on trap ID).  Scav should not max on boxing ability till 762ish.   (scav has a 35 dex btw) This is working as expected, scav is single plus on 15 boxes and select encs on 14.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:25 pm

Can you guys provide me with the wisdom values of your chars? (along with race, guild and level) I'm wondering if I may have the equation looking for more Wis than needed... that would explain why IDing appears subpar. I had anticipated it maxing out well before boxing the way I coded it.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:48 pm

Scav, morloch, level 616
stats:
Str 34
Int 23
Wis 29
Con 22
Cha 26
Dex 35

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by musicman on Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:36 pm

lvl 484 os. thief 28 wis

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:00 pm

running thief on 14/15, 200ish boxes, blows 1 in 7 boxes
running thief on 12a just 2 runs, but blows 4 boxes in a row at one point, did not count but it was quite poor boxing.

Thief, osiri level 563 (31/27/29/25/30/36).

This is an issue imo, so I bring it up. To my way of thinking (right or wrong), this thief should be a max boxer.

2 cents

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by boxripper on Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:57 pm

For the sake of argument:

Where (approximately) are we looking for maxed (or mostly maxed) level based boxing skills?

Is 500 pegged? 600? 400?

Thieves (even with the upgraded offensive abilities) are a pretty sucky class to build. Building to 999 seems to be more of a pita than I would be willing to do at this point. So some sort of guidance would be helpful.

Earlier in the string you said some boxes are harder than others. So for the sake of argument -- a level 16 UBER box with the hardest trap versus a "maxed" (ability) osiri thief with (maxed) dex-- what sort of %age are you planning?

I understand that you don't want to give us formulas and functions.... but some sort of ball park guidance would be nice.

I have a level 185 thief that "shows" either + or ++ on boxes on 11. But he blows 30-50% of them. Is the display wrong? Bad Luck? Is he confused about his chances? Is he mis id'ing the trap and therefore blowing it?

IMHO

A best race, equipped THIEF that has been built up thru 543 PAINFUL levels should either be maxed disarm or very very close to max disarm. Expecting people to push a thief up thru 800 is asking too much of the average gamer.
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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by Jude on Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:43 pm

Thieves are supposed to max out their boxing quite early.

From what I am hearing, it sounds like we need to raise the boxing percentage a bit if Glenn's thief is blowing 1 in 7 boxes on 14/15.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by miger on Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:26 pm

My 297 thief regularly blows ++ traps on 11. Just blew one on level one. I just ignore fear traps now and routinely blow ++ fate traps, some for a positive effect and some not. I don't know if anything is actually set wrong, but will start tracking just how frequently a ++ is not successful for more factual information.

Mike

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by dungeonmaster on Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:41 am

Patience.

Keep hard numbers. Things always seem worse than they are when you simply recollect back. Write it down over a significant number of traps.

Remember-- some traps are harder to open than others. If you are a good player, you should be able to figure out which ones jude set to be "hard" and which ones are normal. Then -- when you guys have some hard numbers to turn in, we can look at this and see if:

a) something is wrong with how we are doing it
b) if our formula didn't play out the way we wanted it to
c) if something else is at play


please recall that a ++ means 80% or more. So if you are in at the bottom of the ++ range, you are SUPPOSED to be blowing 1 in 5 boxes. just because the old game did it this way doesn't mean we are limited to doing it this way. we could add another display like +++ or ++ or some such to indicate 90% or higher.

this is the main strength of Javatar. We can change it, grow it, modify it as we see fit.
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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by ghard on Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:31 am

ghard wrote:running thief on 14/15, 200ish boxes, blows 1 in 7 boxes

Thief, osiri level 563 (31/27/29/25/30/36).


These were counting. It was 204 boxes, 1 box blown for every 7 boxes opened (excluding untrapped).

Patience is no problem, but I will say a thief with stats and level detailed above should be maxed out for boxing ability. 36 is quite a high dex, I assume sufficient to get max dex bonus. That plus thief class is basically all about one thing, opening boxes. If a thief cannot do that function well, I would argue that a thief serves little purpose as a guild. I say this knowing that double plus means 80% or greater as a box indicator, I just mean this guy should be at the max imo. Which I am hoping will be at 95% successful at disarming the trap.

2 cents.


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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

Post by miger on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:06 am

I can not judge whether anything is wrong or needs reconsideration (yet), but as ghard said "thief class is basically all about one thing, opening boxes. If a thief cannot do that function well, I would argue that a thief serves little purpose as a guild."

I feel that if a thief is not always better than every other guild at its specialty of safely opening chests it is a disappointment. I think this should be true on each level a thief travels: a very young thief should be very good on level 1; as it gains grade and dex, etc. that skill should carry over to the next levels deeper in the dungeon; until a maximum ability is significantly better than other guild players when seeing a ++ chest.

When I am traveling the level that my quests occur, and I am failing to safely open chests frequently enough that I consider just by-passing them, the game fails in some way to meet the expectations of a thief. Why raise a thief if he is not EXCEPTIONALLY good at what he is expected to do.

Would you like a sorc whose spells fizzled out 20% of the time, or a healer whose heals did not work at all 20% of the time, or a seeker who could not TP or locate 20% of his attempts? That is what happens to a thief when he is running where he is expected to run.

More 2 cents worth.

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Re: IMPROVED: Dexterity bonus for disarming trapped treasure chests

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