FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

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FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:55 am

By my observation chars who can backstab do not automatically hit when they roll a backstab.  In other vers that was about the only means for low att thief and scav to hit against high defense monsters.  Thief for example could hit alumy when he rolled a backstab, but not otherwise.

Please consider giving chars with backstab the ability to hit always with the backstab roll.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by musicman on Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:06 am

This coincides with my observations as well. Backstab was not based on the attack score. If a successful backstab roll was made by the thief or scavvy, a separate damage roll was made which was doubled (hence the backstab = double damage rule imported from D&D)

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by Jude on Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:24 am

Thanks for the report on this--I was unaware of that mechanic. It should be a simple matter to reorganize the code as such. (I will be pushing an update soon for dex based thieving resistance, better dex based boxing dependence, and this backstab issue.).

Question: what are your thoughts on critical hits? Did they work this way as well? Currently they are in the 'roll to hit as normal, then roll to see if it is a critical on damage' category as well..

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:05 pm

I don't have as clear an idea on critical hits, it is tougher to detect the algorithm by observation. I think your current method works fine would be my 2 cents on it.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:07 pm

One more thought, hit must occur for critical hit potential to be possible makes good sense.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by musicman on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:19 pm

The way 'critical hit' currently works seems balanced (not overly favoring the player) to me as well.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by Jude on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:25 pm

Ok, I've been re-visiting this issue now that I have gotten some of the bigger potatoes off my plate.  

Regarding backstab, I am fine with making it work the way it used to work.. however, I have a few questions for you:

1.  Did backstab historically work on all creature types?  I know in D&D, any DM worth his/her salt would not let a player backstab a Green Ooze... but I want to know if Avatar historically just let backstabs affect any creature type.  (I believe that currently, we have it affecting every creature type--fine to leave as-is, IF that's the way it should be.)

2.  This is the important one:  what should the % likelihood of backstabbing top out at for a maxed out thief?  I suspect that I may currently have the percentage too high..  but you tell me.  

3.  Kind of ancillary to #2, but did you see any monster dependent affects on backstabbing?  i.e. if you are down on 15, were you just as likely to backstab a Golden Eagle as you were to backstab an Arcane Lord?  Or did the dexterity/guild level of the monster targeted have an effect on the likelihood of a backstab?  

So yeah, I'm happy to repair/rebalance the backstab ability--it would go a long way to making Thieves more playable in the deep--but I don't want to overdo it.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:43 am

1.  I think there was a short list of creatures it did not affect, slimes being one of them that I noticed in other vers (going from memory of course, so as good as that goes).
2. Backstab is too high currently based on other vers, but bstab as I recall it in other vers was never 2 or more bstabs in one round, only one.  If the bstab character scored a bstab, it got double damage for all swings against a single critter, enc of attack round.  In other words, thief rolls a backstab, with vamp fang, all 4 rounds hit for double damage on a single critter, round over.  The exception appeared to be if a single round of bstab could kill the monster in question. Then 1 round gone, the rest of the rounds of attack from the thief got regular damage swings against remaining critters (no chance for second bstab that round). Here it appears all 4 swings would be separate chances of hitting and backstabbing.  Bstab percent is probably just somewhat high if it is going to apply separately on each swing.  My guess is that a thief scored a backstab about 1/5th to 1/4th of the time at max in other vers, but that of course is a guesstimate based on observation.
3. This one gets pretty subtle but yes other vers it appeared to me the thief got bstab more on alumy for example and less on OG are 2 examples.  In general I would say it was pretty equal, subtle differences, but my take is yes that existed and having dex of the monster and/or level of the monster matter makes sense as the monsters defense to this.

I could not agree more with your sentiment of let's not overdo it, good thoughts in general imo.  Historically running deep thief was all feast or famine.  A nice big bstab roll or kill for the thief's round or a miss or feeble hit.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by musicman on Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:30 am

Okay, will draw on my experience to fairly answer your queries.
1. Slimes are the only ones I am certain belong on the list of 'cannot be backstabbed'. I also believe SOME elementals were also immune to this type of attack. Can anyone else confirm or refute from their experience? If so, please speak up.
2. Vampire Fang gave an increased % of backstabbing. I am guessing here but from observation I would say 25% was max for a built (509) thief and estimate a 5-10% increase in chance w/VF.
3. Negative on any perceived monster resistance to this attack. I will say that the higher the thief's dex, the increased chance of landing this sneak attack (from my observations and those of others through the history of the game).

From game notesfiles over the years, I recall a concurrence of opinion regarding this ability. 1.Roll for success 2. Roll for damage (which was doubled, it being a sneak attack)

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:51 am

Steve makes a good point. bstab % could be item dependent I believe, much like critical hit percent can be item dependent. I don't believe this was unique to vamp fang, but the point is valid to be sure.

I believe but cannot prove that bstab was tied to boxing ability, since thief was best boxer, his bstab went up faster than other boxers (scav for example, villy as well).

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by Jude on Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:45 pm

I completely rewrote the backstab routine this evening.  

It is now functioning as it has in past versions.  I think this is quite an improvement for the thief, giving it a bit of a wild card to do some big damage on the baddies.  I spent quite a bit of time fiddling with it tonight (and face planting to a lot of stud encounters on the test server).  It appears to be working well.  

Please note that you will find it impossible to backstab slimes/clean-ups, but they can still be hit as normal.  

This change is live on the production server.  

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:07 pm

Thanks for the effort!

I have seen some odd results.  Thief fighting filchers got a kill or crit and then a bstab for 400x on next filcher.

Just my thoughts on how it was, bstab should really be a roll for bstab or not (only 1 bstab per round).  If bstab, see if single swing of bstab kills the monster, if so, rest of the swings get a regular roll with no chance of bstab.  If it does not kill monster in one swing, all swings go against that one monster as bstab.  The thought seemed to be that bstab, sneak attack, is only available once per round and targets a single monster.  The see if single swing kills it was an adaptation so that if thief/bstab class rolled a bstab against pud monsters, it would not be one swing and round over.

I dont know if that is what you were going for, but I offer those thoughts.  Question, do scavs bstab work the same way as thief bstab or is it thief only?

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by Jude on Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:45 pm

Ok, I know what I did. Currently backstab can only happen once a round, (with all subsequent swings contributing until a kill happens or you run out of swings). Right now, if the initial check for backstab fails on swing one, it is still getting rolled for on swing two, etc. This should be a simple fix--if the first check for backstab in a round fails, I'll turn of the subsequent checks..

Scavenger is the same.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:47 pm

Cool, thanks for your work on this.

Also I wanted to note that i dont think a filcher can possibly have 400x hits. Maybe it is just damage being displayed instead of you killed one? FYI

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:43 pm

Another observation.

Scav does score bstabs, but the rate is perhaps 1 in 30 or 40 or more swings. Is this intentional? Thief seems to be more like 1 in 4 or 5. Thief is level 442 and scav is level 696, FYI


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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by Jude on Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:36 am

I have made some more fixes on the test server--they should address the backstabs appearing later in the round, and the erroneous damage display.  (It was adding backstab damage to the cumulative damage scored on the non-backstab swings..)

Regarding Scavengers, the original '84 help lesson data lists Thieves as getting a '+' for backstab progression, whereas Scavengers get a '-' (minus).  So I guess we're back to the same question we had regarding extra defense... Do Thieves and Scavengers ultimately backstab at the same % frequency?  (According to the help lesson, the plus and minus indicate the 'rate' at which the ability develops.) i.e. do they both get to the same proficiency, with the Thief getting there first... or does the Scavenger continue to approach, but never get to the % backstab that the Thief gets?

We have one stake in the ground, i.e. that thieves max out somewhere around 20 to 25% in backstab frequency.  What is your experience with scavengers?  I seem to recall them not backstabbing as often as thieves, even when maxed out... but I could be mistaken.  

Also--knowing WHEN Thieves and Scavengers max out their backstab would be good to know.  Right now, I'm having Thieves max out their percentage at level 509.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:48 pm

I believe it is a marker for the progression rate (+ vs -), not the ultimate rate.  At max of ability i believe thief and scav are the same, but i believe the thief weapon of dagger had a better backstab percentage than the scav weapon of axe.  In my experience a max thief with dagger bstab around 20 to 25 with scav maxing with axe around 5% less (15 to 20%) noticeable to be sure.  My believe is the max thief advantage over the max scav was that they used a must better stealth/sneak attack weapon in dagger over the scav axe.  So thief got a bonus from weapon where scav got no bonus from weapon.

My believe is backstabbing progression was the same as boxing progression (not that they are tied together, just that the progression of boxing was reused to give thief twice the progression speed of scav on backstabging as well).  That plus dex, wis and level would be a factor in backstabbing like it is in boxing ability. Thief maxing out around 370x and scav around 740x.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by Jude on Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:13 am

I just pushed another patch to the backstab code. With this patch, you should see:

1. Backstabs (when they happen) occurring at the start of a combat round and never subsequently.
2. Accurate damage reporting for backstabs that don't outright kill the target. (Fixed the display bug that was adding in other non-backstab swings.)
3. Considerably higher backstab percentages on the part of Scavengers. That said, the backstab rate for Scavengers tops out at a much higher guild level than it does for Thieves..

Happy gaming!

-Jude

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:36 am

Sounds great! Thank you for the effort!

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by Jude on Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:36 am

..all from your recommendations--thank YOU for your feedback (and patience)!

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:25 pm

Observation: Thief against vamp, uber, stud encs, bstab 1 that i saw in all the swings he took, certainly over 100 swings
Thief against monsters he can hit easily, bstab around 20 percent.

FYI

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by musicman on Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:38 pm

I have noticed similar behavior with the thief backstab routine. My thief character has a VERY high dexterity score and still scores a very low % of backstabs vs. 14-15 regulars (not uber hunting yet).
This seems to indicate to me that the roll is also based on the monster's defense? which dex bonus for special attack (backstab) is supposed to enhance vs. all monsters that can be hit with weapons.

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

Post by ghard on Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:07 am

I got quested for my dagger of swiftness so i had to give to clerk and went to vamp fang. With vamp fang I am getting a number of bstabs against uber monsters. FYI

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Re: FIXED: Backstab automatically hit

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