question for the player base

I am curious, what are your feelings about a new version of the game coming out about mid 2019? And when I ask that, I mean a totally redone version.  A few new guilds, new race or two, new spells, new dungeon.  Maybe even some new game mechanics (assuming I can convince Jude to write them) -- for example re-working saving throws to try and break the ogre=god thing we have going on now.  Eliminating a goodly portion of the new monsters added in, and maybe having multiple dungeons/areas.  But even if Jude isn't willing to do major code modifications, there is a lot I could do with what I have... but only if it is desired. I for one would like to try and incorporate some of the cool features from AVATAR 90, while scrapping the afterlife. Again tho, Jude's desire/availability may be a limiting factor here.

I feel like I have learned a lot running this dungeon, but I made quite a few mistakes.  I am pretty sure I can/will do a lot better on the next one.  What are your thoughts on this issue? And if you could change some things, what would you like to see changed?

JPA

well... (long pause)

I like the "idea" that javatar is not another copy of avatar84.
That being said, I like the reality of this version less and less the more I play it.  I find myself bored most of the time more than anything else, and I find many of the choices you made, concerning.

Why is it that a sorc is "required" to run 14?  Why are ogres such a dominant race?  Why is CON so important that all other stats become almost worthless?  Why are players that make all the same choices about races and guilds rewarded, while those that try something a bit different punished?

Mechanically, why are there still lingering bugs like roll over damage, tp ing onto chutes, encounters that glitch the game, companions that can be raised/carried when there are none present, etc still in the game a year and a half after it opened?

So to answer your question, I'd like to see another version at some point, but I'd more like to see you clean up the nagging issues with this one first.  And do something to achieve better balance with what we have now, FIRST.

Then when those issues are resolved, start thinking about a new version.

I'd like to see/experiment with new guilds and spells and races-- sure.  I think a great first step would be to fix the spells you have now so that sorcs aren't so blasted UBER that they can get away with casting almost anything down to level 14. And maybe do something constructive with some of the lesser used guilds-- like Paladin, Villain, Scavvie.   The game sort of loses something when everyone runs Ninja, Thief, Sorc, Healer (or Mage) but the way you have it set up now, you'd have to be brain damaged to do otherwise.


This is coming out harsher than I meant it to.  I don't hate what you have done... I just want it to be better and more like a cool spin off of avatar84.  Think about how to increase players choices not limit them.  It seems to me that you designed a system that tends to channel folks into the same paths. I vividly recall the almost destruction of avatar84 when they decided to add bards to the game. Fifty people playing the game and there would routinely be 30+ bards. While not that extreme, the choices you have made seem to push the player base into that channel.

So if I could ask for something it would be that. I know it isn't simple, but something for you to think about.

MLM

i am sort of in involved in this project at this point since i haven't played the game in so long, i probably have forgotten how.

i am 100% in favor of a new version.

building new guilds will be difficult. getting the balance right between a stud and a pud guild is going to be very tricksey. i recall the ranger thing from the last version. don't really want to go there again.

i fully agree with the previous response about fixing the stuff that is wrong... but i understand that jude has limited time to work on things. it seems to me that the 'a' levels that you added to the game have been less than fully successful. a new system for the add on dungeon spaces would be a great idea. a whole different dungeon entrance with different monsters and stuff might work out better. maybe link the normal and additional dungeons at certain places... or make it so a new dungeon descends at different rates. level 1 is like and linked to level 3, level 2 is like level 5. level 3 is like and linked to level 8. you get the idea. i haven't given this a great deal of thought, but it might allow people that didn't want to run a tp char a way to get up and down in short order. i would encourage you to do more things like wofats and outpost and such.

i agree in spirit with the previous response about opening choices to players. i certainly agree that ogres are currently OP and something must be done to bring the game balance back into whack. it is silly to have or continue to have a game system that has such a clearly defined uber-race and then a bunch of after thoughts. the same thinking applies to sorcs, and perhaps the ninja.

you did a fabulous job with this version and between you and jude, you increased the playability of javatar about 500%.(maybe more). i thank you. did you make some less than ideal choices, probably. i still thank you none the less. you did better than i would have or could have done in your shoes. so this isn't an indictment or a condemnation.

bottom line--

get rid of uber race(s) and uber guild(s). try something new. probably scrap the add on dungeon structure-- no one runs there and it was a huge pain in the ass to map. find someway to make quests less onerous. getting quested for a rare mob when there are 300 mobs in the game is one thing, getting quested for a rare mob when there are 900 mobs in the game is something entirely else.

just my two cents worth

JF

Thank you for the responses.  Nice to hear from you again, Jake.

I appreciate both of you taking the time to respond, and Mike (Mark?) I don't take offense to candor.  Its not like you are calling one of my kids ugly or something, but thank you for trying to tip toe around the harshness of criticism.  

If you have anything else to add, even if it is harsh-- this is the time.

Does anyone else have anything to say on this subject?  I am asking for your honesty and opinion-- so as long as you can express it without being overtly rude or crude-- this is the time to speak up.

Even if the new version idea doesn't end up going anywhere, I can tweak this version some... so don't be bashful.  What doesn't work well?  What isn't much fun?  What can you suggest to make things better?  I can't pull off a major remodel, but maybe we could gut a bathroom, or lay new carpet or something.

JPA

I have enjoyed getting back into playing Avatar and it is entirely due to the accessibility and playability of the work you have done at the javatar site. In particular the ability to run multiple characters and the fact that the economy seems better (so far gold has not been superabundant but also not such a big slow down in gearing up). The z (starter) dungeon also helps the beginning chars. And of course, the access we have here to the DMs is a huge gain! So, a big thanks!

I feel like I am starting to get a handle on some of the aspects of endgame play and feel like I am just getting to the really fun (albeit dangerous) parts. A couple of my chars are pushing 509 and I expect that I will take a peek at 15 in the not too distant future. So, selfishly, I hope the game doesn't change much for the next 6 months or so.

Yes, there are still some buggy issues to clear up. The game hangs on certain water and special room encounters. The screens don't always update quite appropriately. But overall, I am pretty satisfied. I think game balance can always be tweaked, to increase the diversity of races and guilds in the groupings that form a crew. However, striving to min/max seems somewhat inherent in the gameplay.

For myself, I don't find that the alignment system adds much to the game. I would like to see Thiefs get more experience for successfully de-trapping boxes so that they might level more equally with other guilds. I like special levels, particularly when they meet niche needs (especially good for building particular guilds, possibility of rare items or mobs, possibly as a means of transport between levels). I think that creating items of similar level but different combinations of stats/spells/abilities might increase the fun in choosing the particular way we want to gear a char (eg, aimed at particular encounters the crew is weak at). Having some encounters or areas/levels that reward more than one player working together might also be a way to build community life. I think more guilds with a diversity of spells or attack mechanics would be interesting.

It would be nice if two dungeons could be maintained, especially during development of anything new.

But generally, I am likely to try and play whatever is put forth here, and I am in favor of things that continue to keep the DMs interested in the work they are doing on this site!

-- the 'B' boys

Just 4 days ago the note was posted asking about the feelings for a new version being created. I was initially quite hesitant to voice an opinion simply because I have only this version (and its early test version) to base my thoughts on. AVATAR 84 or AVATAR 90 mean nothing to me.

I liked the early pilot version where I had a lot to learn about how the game works. I was led to some existing wiki type material that helped understand the basic concept. I made many incorrect choices about race, guilds, using items, and actual fighting techniques and still learning.

Then the game rolled over to the current Javatar and my biggest initial issue was that I did not know how to create maps. I was still trying to draw level 1 and most everyone else was moving down the dungeon. Maybe it is just a skill I have never learned, but I was stymied in a major way until Jake and another person offered to share their mapping.

I able reasonably confident now with this version although I freely admit I still make stupid mistakes, die too many sudden deaths, and probably am sticking with some early chars that were created poorly.

With that specific background, you can see I am trying to better learn this version and have little desire to start over in a completely new version. I have never been to level 15 here yet and the thought of facing an Uber fight frankly scares me.

Obviously, different players play the game with different objectives in mind. To some the opportunity to map new levels is a welcome challenge, while to others it may be a limiting endeavor.

The comments made so far come from players with a variety of talents and experience reflecting those who will play the game. I accept and reflect those comments, especially those about improving what we currently have over creating a new version.

Thanks for your persistent patience and oversight. I hope this version is around for a long while.

miger (Mike)

While I believe it is possible that two versions could be running simultaneously, I am not sure that is a great idea.

At the very earliest, I could see having something new up and running mid 2019.  That gives you 14 months to do all the stuff you want to do with this version before it goes away.  In all likelihood, the start date for the next version would fall back some from there.  It always seems to take me longer to do things than I think it will.

So, the question remains-- for those that haven't answered yet, or those who want to weigh in again...

What features would you like to see?  For those that didn't play 90 -- it had a lot of cool stuff like mobs that breathed cold and electricity and acid.  And a crafting system to make items out of components.  And guild offices.  And lots of huge dungeon maps (that isn't going in) with special areas and special mobs in those areas.  The outpost (for example) is a nod to that version of the game.  From the character side, your chars had 3 levels of resistance to various things like magic and fire and cold and electricity, even things like protection.  So if your Race was naturally resistant to cold, and you cast a resist cold spell, you would have the second level of resist cold in place.  If you then wore an item that gave your resist cold as well, you would have the third layer in place.  Some of the more studly items gave two levels of resistance.  

There were some really cool and groundbreaking stuff in avatar90.  But it was burdened with the "afterlife" instead of the traditional raise/comp thing.  Players hated the afterlife-- and the game suffered because they wouldn't get rid of it.  Every death cost stats and hits-- no comping.  Now I could see going with a system like that-- ie a smallish percentage chance with every raise, that you would lose something from each stat, and an automatic loss of 1-2 hitpoints and say 12-20 weeks age.  That would be in lieu of comping.  Of course if you ROCK-- then you would still buy the comp!  Most likely we would stay with vanilla avatar comp system.  Unless of course players would rather have the other system.  

They also used a floating LUCK system.  You could earn or lose luck based on a variety of issues and sacrificing various items at the ALTAR.  Certain monsters could drain your LUCK and killing others could improve it.  There was a lot going on with AVATAR90, and I would like to see us take the stuff that was great and discard the stuff that was not.  For example they got rid of the store and replaced it with a trading post where players put their stuff up for sale with prices assigned.  This was a no-Bueno idea, and the players ended up using the trading post as an extension of their char's item slots.  So we wouldn't be going there--

Additionally-- I would like to borrow some ideas from the MAN 60 version, as well.  Level 11 is currently a nod to that version of the game.  So basically-- I want to wrap up all the best ideas from AVATHAR right up thru and including Avatar 95.  Tho to be honest with you-- I thought 95 was pretty short on good ideas and long on ones that didn't work out so well.  But if there are players that liked 95 and want to share what they liked, I am willing to listen.


So, speak up.  Let me know what you want to see.

JPA

Foggie is not dropping items correctly.  Angel of Death should be dropping potions of youth, or maybe sands of time (wink) but that doesn't happen at all.  In fact my last N runs on 14 have netted me almost no items of note.  An occasional drop here or there, but a lot of longish runs end up with a tome or a sphere and nothing else.  Didn't you have trouble with the leps not acting right too?  Seems like a bug.

I suggest you reduce the destroy shot some.  I am running about 85% of my deaths to destruction.  Almost 15% to stoning, and have yet to ever die to hit loss, that I am aware of.  Now it could be that some of the assumed destructions are actually damage deaths that simply don't paint on my screen, but I would assume that I would see some hit points peeling off before death occurs.  Maybe turn up the monsters attacks some so they crank out more damage, and reduce the auto death thing.  Or maybe it is just a client/server issue, can't say for sure.

Gorgons seem a bit wimpy here compared to what I recall, and Vamps are a whole bunch tougher.  It is pretty much a one and done with Vamps.  You either burn them, or they destroy/para you.  I think Vamps account for at least half my deaths on 14.  Seems sort of excessive.

I don't run the giant room on 8 anymore, but that was pretty much frozen encounter central for me.  Near the end I just gave up going into the big giant room entirely.  1 out of every 6 or 7 encounters would glitch.  And require a pain in the butt back out and wait for repop and all that. I have seen roll over damage and or rollover death happen twice now on 14.  That one isn't a lot of fun.

I had an interesting bug with the dead companion raise-- I didn't have any at all, but I had carried a dead char back to city with that char.  So No companions-- I tried to send a message and ended up in the morgue instead where it offered to raise my companion slot #2 for a few hundred thousand.  I accepted.  It took my gold, and gave me a Giant Beagle in slot 2 with  1309 hit points. He hung around for a while, but when I exited and re-entered the game-- he was gone.  I hadn't ever had Giant Beagles on that char-- so weird!

I think there are other nagging little issues, but can't recall them now.  

As far a remodeling goes:  How can you make any significant changes without having players feel like they got pimped?  I mean if you wimp out sorcs, EVERYONE is going to be pissed off because they built a sorc because he was the UBER char.  Right?  Or if you take away the big CON save from ogres-- aren't all the Ogre people gonna feel like they got abused?  Or ninjas.  I mean I didn't come into this game intending to run a sorc or a ninja.  I ended up running them because that seemed to be the power classes.  If you wimp them out very much, I am pretty sure I am gonna feel like I got shafted,  Make Sense?  Or am I being a whiner?

Having the end of game weapons for each guild really makes the holy mace useless.  We talked on this before.  Maybe drop it's use level some so that it isn't only useful for 50 levels.  

Bump up seekers attack or weapons some.  They are really not much fun to build.  There has to be a tweak in there that will let them fight a bit more without making them stud room fighters.  Not much fun to run a char that just is supposed to stand there and get pummeled by stuff.

Why can't mages do much against undeads?  Maybe give them an expensive and slightly underpowered version of dispel undead.  Healers get two points-- paybe make Mages cost 5 and hit for less. Would go along way to making the char more universal.  I don't really enjoy running the mage here.  Did you know that you can charm DK and DQ with Medallion of Dragons and Breath Taker?  Other versions required soul entrap.  Is this supposed to be that way or an oversight?  Just something else to make mages less special?

Some ideas for you-- take them all with a large grain of salt.  I haven't played with the Vill, Pally, Scavie or Wizard classes here.  I really enjoyed playing the game down to about level 13 or so.  Not loving 14 so much. Thanks for your time and efforts on this game.

Mike

If your heart is set on creating a new version, I guess that is what you will do. From your comments, it is likely that such a new version would be based on ideals from previous versions melded into some newly created features.

Personally, I would like to see you act on cleaning up this version more than creating another version.

There are still open items within the forum that could be the starting points for improvement in this version as well as several improvements/clean-ups mentioned in this current message string.

For example the incident of surprise round deaths has been mentioned twice in this string and seems to happen much too frequently. I have not died from simple hit loss for quite a while but have often been caught by multiple sudden deaths during a single trip even when I attempt to immediately step out of a room without fighting. It is also rather strange to get suddenly killed in a room but to end up getting pulled back outside when the leader immediately steps out.

The game seems created unusually strange to encounter monsters that can be effectively killed by only a single guild. That seems to be the case for vamps at least. If I try to fight/spell the vampires with anything other than a sorc, I quickly die first. I can't speak to other monsters, but haven't been to 15 yet where it has been stated you are required to run a sorc to survive.

My preference then would be to act to refine this game, not move to the creation of a new version.

I would rather not have to go spend 1000+ hrs of my time over the next 14 months doing a new version too, but as Mike and others have noted, this version is pretty flawed, and whatever I do now to try and fix it/adjust it is going to make somebody angry.  If I beef up certain guilds and races, and wimp out others, everyone is just going to be angry, except maybe the player that is running the guilds that get beefed up and not running the ones that get demoted.

The only way to fix the inherent problems with ogres is to completely redo the saving throw system, and who is in favor of that sort of change in mid stream?  It is just one can of worms after another... and I feel that trying to patch up this game is the wrong path to take.  If there were just a few faults-- I could see it, but there are a whole series of pretty major patches that would have to be put in place, and when we come out the other side???? There is a pretty significant risk of the game having a whole nother series of problems created by trying to coble something together mid stream.

I 'feel' and believe that the only way forward from this point is to begin planning the next version.  The constraints placed upon us to roll out changes piecemeal and then somehow manage to pull the rabbit out of the hat at the end of the day and have a wonderful cohesive product is just not likely to happen.  There are over 200000 lines of code in this game.  The database is expansive, and if you notice, strives for a commonality among the various features.  It is really rather horribly complex.  For me to go in and perform 'surgery' on this thing now (4 years after I designed it) is rather likely to produce more chaos than it fixes, because I have forgotten many of the interactions I designed.  I saw this very clearly when I did the redesign of level 12.  Jake found all sorts of broken links for me, and monsters that didn't go back into the places they were supposed to go.  It was a mess that took me weeks of time to resolve and that was a very simple level 12 redesign.  Studs and Ubers and 15 are easily 200% harder to work out than 12.   I am not willing to go that route.

So I can leave this game alone, or try and make some very minor tweaks ( laying new carpet ) or I can just let it run its course while I spend a huge amount of time designing, testing and finalizing its replacement.  I can even talk to Jude about leaving this version up, but remember the other 'site' where they play this game resets one of their games every 12-15 months.   I am talking about giving you 14 months to finish.   How long do you think you need?  I don't think that having two version of Javatar running for years on end is a good idea.

From Docriley

Agree JPA

We all have things we would like "tweaked" in this version (which, again, I applaud the works of Jude/JPA/Jake and others for ALL the WORK they do to keep this up and running - the re-designs and all. - From someone who played in '79, I am telling you that THIS version is VASTLY superior than what we played then... and that one was pretty good.) The fact that we can have as many characters in the game as we can handle is AMAZING, and makes this version really fun! You are only limited by what you can do.

As in a long-term DnD campaign, all games must have balance. The Carrot must be worth the threat of the Stick, the treasure worth the monster. If you go back to see fatal flaws made in games - a game that was successful and then was "ruined" look at Everquest2 - meant to be vastly superior, they took the fear out of death, and no more corpse retrieval. At first, everyone thought this was WONDERFUL, then, after playing for a while, and realizing there was nothing there to keep them "on the edge of their collective seats," everyone got bored and quit. It was a massive failure. So, that is point one: The game is pretty balanced as it is. Yes, we would like to make some tweaks, but if we do, it needs to be balanced.

Second point is what JPA just mentioned. This game is hugely complex. Working on parts is like doing surgery. (not that I know computer code, just surgery Tweaking one part usually effects another, and opens up not one can, but multiple cans of worms, and those take time and effort to track down and fix. I don't know how they feel, but at some point, when the tweaks get too many, I would assume it's better just to start de novo than to keep patching the old, diseased product. Doing this is something I know nothing about, but what I DO know is that it would involve a tremendous amount of work. All I can do is playtest and give ideas - I can't write code. So, my question and point is from this prospective; What would JPA and Jude LIKE to do? One thing I have learned in life, is that if someone LIKES what they are doing, they do a GREAT job at it. (Make someone do a task they hate, and you end up with a flawed product) We are VERY LUCKY we have talent like these folks available, that WANT to do some of this. So, give them some room (I think we will REALLY enjoy the results) - What do they WANT to do? Find that out, and you likely have your answer.

As far as tweaks - things I'd like to see, or ideas of what you might want to incorporate/change, I will try to keep my suggestions balanced. HOW they would/could be incorporated I don't know. Here are a few:

1. I know CON is an issue - people don't like the world revolving around it and con-based saving throws, but, you have to have something. Jude made a GREAT move with limiting CHA, and then making it a very desirable commodity by improving Sands of Time and making it a desirable thing. Can things be done to make higher INT/WIS pierce magic resistance better? That makes them more desirable. STR and DEX all ready have their merits. I think CON should remain "the king of stats," but keep a way for a low-level/starting person to get some, like the starter dungeon. Whoever implemented that, deserves a gold star - brilliant move IMO.
2. Like a Fighter's ability to critical hit, I'd like to see higher Int/Wis casters ability to crit spells. This may be too much to ask for, but I think it was in one version?
3. A mage is a powerful character at low levels, but nearly useless in big encounters. Shadow Knights/Twisters are the only things they can do later, and if you have GoD or another item that casts Flick/Precog they are really not needed. How about a stun type of spell for them later, that does no damage, but can prevent a mob from attacking? I think some type of mesmmerization spell, even at the expense of "locking" the Mage up for the duration of the encounter while he/she keeps that mob "controlled" would be awesome.
4. I think a thief should get some SMALL amount of experience for successfully opening a box. The more "lethal" the trap, the more experience. They were a LOT more fun too when they had even a FEW spells they could cast, like poison, charm human, charm giant. I would give them remove poison as well.
5. I really liked the idea of everyone having a "hated foe" like the ranger class in old DnD. Thieves did more damage against Orcus, etc. Races could be used too: Dwarves do more damage vs Giants. etc.
6. Things like "Yellow Screamers" in the dungeon should be able to alert other things - that's why they scream... and it makes it more fun! (Kill it quick or it might bring in other mobs!) Along that line, why not have Powerful UBERS able to GATE in minions? How about a Gate spell, in battle for high level Mages? Paladins? (two classes otherwise noted for their uselessness in high level encounters)
7. How about a regeneration spell for the healer?
8. An uber mob that severs a limb, incapacitating a character until they see a high level healer, or in city, for "regenerate limb?" (this can also take time/age to heal)
9. The Bard was a good character - was it too powerful? I just played a little on the version that had them, but it seemed fun. (Ie: A good character who can do a little of everything, like the Villain as an evil character who can as well)
10. I am not a fan of destroyer type of deaths - it seems a bit "uncanny valley" that a level 7 pixie/sork can destroy my level 600 Ogre Warrior with a 30 con in surprise (and this has happened). I don't like turquoise fungi or those type of encounters - I don't think they add anything but annoyance. I think after a certain level Characters should more or less be immune to such things, as should Uber mobs.
11. The economy of Avatar is wonderful. Supply and demand. The amount of goods should reflect on price. I like the alignment system as well.
12. You could make CHA even more desirable. The person "leading" the party could, based on their con, change that chance of the encounter being peaced.
13. I liked seeing damage readout - "Your Burning Air spell hit for 630 damage" etc. How much of a pain is that to do?
14. I like that items are quicker than spells, but usually more limited in power - they should be quick to use, but not quite as good. Keeps burnables more useful, but not over-powering.
15. I would make a few items that can be purchased in the store of exceedingly high price. A title? An estate? Something that adds to the person's name? Just a thought.
16. There probably ARE too many mobs in this version - you don't need that many. You can cut down on them if it will help.
17. Dragons and Giants should have a bit more gold than they do now, other things can have less.
18. I have a lot of ideas for items - I won't bore you with them here. If you want them, just ask.

So - I don't know the answer to the "Ogre/Con" dilemma, other than making other stats just as useful, and taking out some of the destroyer/instant death things (notice I did not say "stoning" - that should be kept)

I think keeping the other version up for another year/2 years while you make this new one is reasonable. JPA is right, EVERY version around is re-started eventually, and it won't likely be feasible to have two versions running at the same time.

I'll be happy to do anything I can (which is not much - only ideas) for the new version. I shudder at the amount of coding/work it will take ... ergo - this is why I stress it should be something you will LIKE doing

Most Sincerely

Docriley

If you do a new version, or modify this version I would like to see the ability to have items compress from front to back added in. Several past versions had this feature that could be set in the player flags section on the entry page. Here--
you have c and C both doing the same thing. How bout one of them compresses forward and one compresses back wards.

I would play a new version if/when you release it. The first few weeks of any reset is always the most fun for me; cooperation seems to be most necessary just starting out and it's exciting to find the first steel weapon, rescue other players, share equipment, etc.

Personally I'd love to see you borrow from other avatar versions; you mentioned avatar90 - I think that avatar95 also has some great stuff you might want to consider - namely:

1) expanded resistance levels, 1-5
2) expanded item slots; anklets, bracelets, etc.

One of the huge advantages you have over cyber1 is your willingness to listen to and adopt suggestions from players. I'd encourage you to keep communicating; try to get consensus (since the players have wiiiiiiiide variety of opinions on what is great and what sucks).

For example, I would love to see an updated GUI on top of the current game engine. Give us a mouse-click interface so we can do everything from the mouse; have pull-downs for spells, single click fighting options, etc. - - yet others I'm sure would probably hate this and would rather keep the old Plato interface. Maybe have this as a setting you can turn on/off?

I'd agree with some of the comments about the disconnected dungeons being a bit of a pain although I can't say I was ever a hard-core player on this system; I think I took a break after Wo Fat.

Keep up the good work. More polls!
-Ray

Could be fun, I've been away from the game for a spell. Writing and my job do eat a lot of my time. I would hope you could keep
the current version around though.

Hi, I was wondering in which language is the game coded?  I have some experience with algorithms and would potentially be willing to assist, if I am able.

--Jackknife (for the 'B' boys)

In order to salvage this version of the game there are some inherent flaws I need to address. This means some items/dungeon spaces/monsters will be removed from the game (all with appropriate notifications and with a proper cleanup done at the end to return everyone to the city and clear their quests) Others will be rebalanced. To those ends, I am would like to hear what you all think doesn't add to the fun of the game. FYI -- I am not talking about creating new maps-- but rather removing some of the add on spaces/levels.

We also need a master list of all outstanding bugs/issues. By that, I mean if you have noticed something small ish (like a display glitch or bad English, or something) OR if some issue has not been addressed in a long time--- drop a reply, be as concise as you can.


I don't know how we are going to proceed at this point. Stepping forward from here requires a commitment from both Jude and I to do some serious work. Write your thoughts and feelings about all this here-- so we can have it to reference and to help us decide which way to go.

I have only played twice recently, once for about 4 hours and once for 2 or so.  

In other versions of the game, my chars would be at just about the most exciting time of their building.   Running 14 comfortably, and only getting a level 15 quest once in a while.  At least that is how I see it-- low 400's to 500 ish is the most exciting time to play.  At least in the other versions I have played.

Here it seems more like a long and arduous slog uphill.  Maybe it is the fact that I am just not finding any real items, or maybe it is the fact that I run 14 over and over and the only real threat is the occasional level 15 encounter and VAMPIRES.  I don't mean to be offensive, but it is sort of boring.  I can't really tell you why-- it is likely a combination of a lot of little things-- but for me at least, it is quite real.  This big concept just dawned on me during my last session-- I keep setting myself little goals like get this char to this level so he can wear that item.  Or just an arbitrary number-- "I'm gonna make level 409!"  but the 'reward' I allow myself when I reach that number is … to stop playing.  Which is sad and makes me not want to play anymore.  

Perhaps I have just sort of finally out grown Plato gaming.  Maybe I have become jaded by more modern games and the old dungeon crawler just can't compete anymore.  Maybe... or maybe the promise of this game having "MORE" has just led to less excitement.  More monsters and more items and more att/def and more dungeons and more and more and more-- seems to be working against the game.

I am sad tho.  I really liked this game at first.  I love the involvement from the creators... it just didn't really pan out for me at least.

MLM

Thank you for the response. I would love more specifics, but it sounds like you really don't know what is wrong either. Anyone else want to chime in here? I am asking for input, so let me have it. What do you hate? What is boring? ETC. Specifically, anyone that has played other version(s) of the game all the way to the end game would be ideal.

I plan to attempt a mitigation on the test server only in August -- but you guys are the playability and fun experts, not me. I plan to start by selectively removing some monsters, beefing up gorgons and toning down vamps. If that goes well, I will drop the destruction shots across the board and maybe accompany that with a increase in Monster ATT and damage output.


That is my plan at this point. Thoughts?