Shadow Knife data modified

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Shadow Knife data modified

Post by Jude on Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:45 pm

The Shadow Knife (recently added) was not appropriately assigned to a weapon class. I'm not sure how many of these have been found/are in use... but it was supposed to be a dagger. An unintended side effect of this omission is that, as a 'generic' item, it would basically stack on its swings as well as att/def with an existing weapon. (Basically the same way that dual wield worked with the Ranger class we experimented with here not that long ago.. )

The data has been completed, and the Shadow Knife is now a dagger. That said, we like the idea of dual wielding as a balanced option with this item (maybe with a couple of added swings, but not full stacking of att/def/swings). What do you think of this idea? An exception could be coded for thieves only..


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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by musicman on Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:20 pm

Crocodile Dundee once said "That's not a knife!, This is a knife!"
The name brings forth hopes of increased backstabs.
So is it still a knife? Don't tell us you whittled it down to a toothpick!
I have always enjoyed playing the thief class in avatar. To have a weapon which allows the thief to make a difference on 15 would indeed be a pioneering move. Usually it's the rest of the party which does the hard work and then you raise the thief (with no complications hopefully) and open the box.
The two-weapon fighting style is not foreign to the thief/rogue class in D&D based games with Short Sword and Dagger being the most commonly allowed combination. Some games have SUPER daggers in which case equipping 2 of them (if you were lucky enough to find a second one!) was better than the SS & dagger combination. Food for thought.
I have not found one, (and I think only one has been found) but I hear it makes the thief a viable contender on 15. Thieves are a clever bunch (or so it is said by RPG enthusiasts) and this item could make them even more fun to run!

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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by dungeonmaster on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:15 am

I screwed up the data entry on this one. When I tested it, I never tested for this -- assuming it would simply replace, not stack on to another weapon. Ooops. My bad. Granting offensive powers to thieves is a dangerous game. Go too far, and you have destroyed the reason to have a scavvie guild. I like the concept of a dual wielding thief-- but the reality maybe very tricky to manage.
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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by ghard on Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:20 pm

I have a shadow knife and a greater than 509 thief who can equip it.  I was running it for awhile before reporting on it, but yes, it needs to be backed off.  9 swings is too many for the thief.  On levels he could hit stuff, he was devastating, not that big a deal on 15 since could not hit, but made him a far better fighter than scav with stacked att bringing the thief considerably higher than scav att.

To be honest i never considered thief for multi weapon equips, but it is a very interesting idea.  The question becomes how to balance it of course.  My comment on thief with shadow knife and vamp fang both equipped is well over the top.  I think what you are doing making shadow knife the best thief weapon is probably best road.  Would be interesting though if thief only item was findable that thief could equip as a second weapon.  Add a swing or 2 maybe, but certainly not approaching 9 total.

One comment on shadow knife though as a single welding weapon for thief is if it is to be top of the line for thief, perhaps it should offer at least as much defense as DoS.  Shadow knife 3 def and 1 def from wis point vs DoS 9 def.  Att numbers seem in line with top pally sword, so probably fine.  

I like Steve's suggestion that the shadow knife would increase bstab chances.  Thief without stacked attack from 2 weapons won't hit deep period without bstab, so it makes sense to me at least that ultimate thief weapon would increase bstab chances. The best thief weapon makes thief more of a what a thief is, and aside from boxing, thief is defined by bstab. 2 cents.

I look forward to finding a shadow fork and spoon now!  (sorry, I could not resist the joke, just kidding!)

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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by ghard on Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:45 pm

One thing I did not make clear that I want to after reading what I wrote. I did not report shadow knife being second weapon for thief because I assumed it was intentional, not that it was a mistake. I wanted to have some experience with it before making my case, not just a knee jerk response. Anyhow, the thief used it from level 509 till 550 if I need to back off those levels I got with an unintentional advantage. FYI

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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by dungeonmaster on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:15 pm

I am pretty sure no one is up in arms about your not jumping up and reporting this the second you found it out. This is a non-issue as far as I know.

Trade off- VF hits a bit harder than DoS. DoS gets better def and more swings.

Shadow Knife (fork and spoon) is just another trade off. I will evaluate some of the particular values (ie damage output/def/att/stats) and adjust if it is warranted-- but the general outcome of giving something up to get something else is most likely going to remain.

With the advent of the improved att/def functions for casters-- I need to go and re-evaluate their items as well. I moosed them up to try and get the casters to a more survivable defense. With the new functions, they are now overpowered.

I still need to evaluate the entire brown family of sashes. and the murderers cincture too.

Halloween monsters will be loose in the dungeon within the next week or so.

I added some stuff today, and turned down some of the monsters DEF values at the top end.
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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by ghard on Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:29 pm

Trade offs make good game sense I agree, but my head was not thinking trade off here.

I guess I was thinking that Shadow Knife would be ultimate thief weapon much like 12 sword is for pally.  No trade off there when you manage to get the top of the line sword for the pally (a rare find indeed).  Next best pally weapon (SoW) pales in comparison.  My thought was the same would apply here when I found the Shadow Knife.

2 cents.

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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by Jude on Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:48 pm

Ok, I figured now might be a good time to close the loop on the Shadow Knife. We considered having it add a few swings, but as Glenn mentioned, extra swings don't make that much difference (on 15) if you don't actually have enough att to hit.

The idea of added backstab % is a good one, but unfortunately, the game engine lacked the ability of a weapon to add backstab %... until tonight.

I just modified the item editor and game engine (on the test server for now) to allow items to add backstab %. Our plan is that the Shadow Knife will have the standout backstab % adder over any other weapon in the game.

I'll follow up here when we push this to the live server.

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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by ghard on Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:40 am

Great news! Thanks for the effort!

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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by dungeonmaster on Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:29 pm

Shadow Knife
att/def increased (slightly)

DAMAGE also tweaked upwards a tiny bit.
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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by Jude on Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:24 pm

This was pushed to the live server quite a while ago.. I forgot to follow up when it happened.

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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

Post by ghard on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:40 pm

Interesting, I will have a look today sometime.

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Re: Shadow Knife data modified

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